Running slow

[Nigel]

It's been excellent to witness Andy's running- and literary re-birth whilst running without a watch recently. Incidentally, I hardly ever run watchless myself, Andy, but I knew it would do you good. The once or twice I have done it, it did feel great, honest....

I've been intrigued about this idea of base training, and have read up about it a bit recently on Greg McMillan's running site (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com) which, incidentally, also has a fantastic race prediction calculator. As a dedicatedly one-pace runner, I hardly ever (intentionally) train at slower pace, but finally decided that the time had come at least to try practising some of what I have preached in the past.

So two days ago, I ran my lunchtime circuit pretty darn hard. It took me 47 minutes, and guessing the distance at 5.5 miles, that made 8:33 miles. Yesterday I took a rest day, purely in the interests of science you understand, then today as an experiment, I ran the same route but more slowly. I really tried to run very easily, making an effort to stay relaxed and to keep the speed down whenever I was tempted to speed up. The conditions were similar, and my time: 48:15 or 8:46 miles.

As an exercise in slowing down, it was pathetic. I ran slower than this over the same route for most of the summer (admittedly, it was much warmer then). But the other, more important result, was that it felt terrible. Just terrible. For a start, it seemed much more boring. The time dragged all the way round. And after just two miles, my legs felt like lead, with my shoes seemingly glued to the tarmac. The glue persisted right to the end of the run. It's a sensation I've only previously experienced in the last six miles of a marathon, or on one of the nightmarish 20 milers preceding one. Possibly because as Debbie says, this is the pace you run at that stage of a marathon when you begin to burn fat rather than muscle glycogen for the first time.

All this has set me seriously thinking. I'm going to try to introduce a regular slower run into my routine. Obviously, to play it safe, I'll limit this to just one a week for the moment, since clearly I'm not yet fit enough to manage more. But perhaps eventually I'll be able slow it down another 15 seconds a mile. Another minute a mile slower seems an unlikely prospect right now, but with luck I might get there in a few months if I really work at it hard enough.

Debbie's right - it's much harder to run slower. Try it out. It's certainly given me food for thought, and it might even make me a better runner at the end of it.

[Debbie]

Nigel, I TOTALLY identify with what you're saying. I must admit that having done this base training lark for a couple of weeks now, I'm sick to the back teeth of running so slowly - and find it much harder than running at my normal 8:30-ish training pace (or quicker sometimes). Last night my partner decided to come for a run with me (a very rare occurrence! Think he's feeling guilty about letting his fitness slip!) He's an ex-rower and so subscribes to the "no pain, no gain" school of training. We ran at about 9 minute mile pace, which was fine - still able to chat - but I found it a lot harder than I would have done had I still been doing most of my running at 8-8:30 pace. I worked out that I haven't run at my "normal" pace since the Windsor half, which is now almost a month ago. I really enjoyed last night's run.

I'd decided to base train in order to safely be able to run a lot more miles to build a bit of a pre-marathon training foundation. I wasn't sure I could train 6 times a week at the kind of pace I used to on 4 times a week. But 4 times a week isn't really enough to build the kind of mileage I'm aiming at. After last night, I'm thinking of doing most of my runs at 9-9:30 "easy" pace, but allowing myself one run a week of 8:30 pace and one (short) run slightly faster than this. My fear is that if I run slowly all the time, running faster will seem a hell of a lot harder than it used to when that was my "normal" pace (if that makes sense). Certainly, after a few weeks of just plodding, running at a pace which previously felt easy actually felt quite hard.

Like everything in running, I guess it's a case of trial and error to find what works for you as an individual.

[Nigel]

Second attempt and managed to slow down to 9:00 miles. Felt much better on the way round. It was tough out there, but I even managed to put in an extra slow bit towards the end and ensure a record slow time.

10:00 miling here we come !

[Iceman]

Greetings fellow runners! I've been "lurking" around this forum from time to time since I met Andy at the 2002 Chicago Marathon. Living in the US I enjoy a different perspective and hearing about the different races in this forum from time to time. The eloquence of many of the race reports is amazing! I almost forget I'm reading about someone running a race. Unfortunately, I'm lucky if I keep my spelling errors to a reasonable level.

As for the "slow running," I think it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you're training for a marathon, slower runs are very important. They enable you to run more miles without getting injured and they teach your body to endure longer periods of running. If you're training for a 5k or 10k the slower runs are far less important. As Debbie stated, the more slow running you do the more difficult it becomes to go fast. I ran 4 marathons this year so I spent a lot of time running slowly. It worked fine for the marathons but if I were to try to run a 5k right now my time would be disappointing to say the least. Between this year's marathons I ran an 80 mile 8 person relay in April and a 100k 5 person relay in September. The legs of each relay were about the same distance - approximately 5k to 10k each. My times from the April relay were about 1:00-1:15/mile faster than the September relay. I attribute most of that decline to a summer spent running longer, slower distances in preparation for marathons. That being said, slower running has it's place but the amount of time spent on slower runs needs to be based on what your ultimate goal is. Now that I'm hanging up the marathon shoes for a while I plan to spend the winter trying to regain the speed I lost. For non-elites such as ourselves, to train for endurance and speed at the same time is very difficult. Speed usually comes at the price of endurance and edurance comes at the price of speed.

Thanks again for the refreshing views you all provide! I'll slither back into the shadows now.

Cheers,
Rick

[El Gordo]

Yo, Iceman!

Y'see, some of these Americans speak the language pretty good.

I first met Rick in Hal Higdon's sitting room, which has to be one of the few running-related boasts available to me.

Anyway, thanks for the contribution Rick. I hadn't realised that base training/slow running was such an established practice. It also sounds like a great excuse if someone comments on my normal pace, which is at least a minute a mile slower than Nigel's artificially slow 9 minute miles.

Anyway, do call in again soon, and well done on all the races. I don't think we have long distance relays here -- an interesting idea.

(I should mention in passing that around the beginning of the year Rick was advised to give up running completely. Running 4 marathons sounds like a pretty eloquent riposte to the medical profession...)

Andy

[Nigel]

Greetings Iceman !

"You can be my wingman any time" was my line back then.
Great to see you're still keeping in shape.

Too bad about Hollywood and Goose.

Run well....
Maverick

[Iceman]

HA! Good one, Nigel. I looked at that picture and, though my nickname has no relation to the Iceman you reference, my hair color is very similar these days. Now that summer has gone I'll probably let my natural "blonde" (aka gray) take over. My wife keeps trying to tell me the gray looks distinguished yet she uses this "funny shampoo" that is very dark. Hmmm.

Top Gun was a good movie though. Most Americans enjoy anything where we bomb the crap out of someone for no apparent reason.

"Negative, Ghost Rider. The pattern is full."

Rick

[Debbie]

Eeek! Training slower definitely does make you slower. Again went for a burn of a run with my partner last night - same 2.9 mile route as last week.

We ran it at a pace that really had my breathing hard and I was definitely starting to suffer towards the end ... and looking back over my training log, I discovered that this was a pace I previously found "comfortable" - my fastest time over that route is over a minute quicker than last night. I'm quite disheartened by this as I'm not sure I could manage my previous speed now.

All my runs up to around August time were between 8:00 and 8:30 minute miles and I described some of them as quite comfortable, even the fast ones. I could often get around 7:45 pace.

I don't want to sacrifice my speed for endurance - I want both! Are they really mutually exclusive for us non-elites?

[parky]

Debbie,

I don't propose to be an expert on any of this at all, but is all your training base training? To increase your speed, do you need to include one, maybe two sessions of some speed work. The sort of stuff we all hate; 600m. 800m, 1000m reps, hill work, fartlek etc, or does base training cut out all forms of speed work?

What does anyone else think?

[Iceman]

I wouldn't get too upset over one run, Debbie. There could be a number of things that made last nights jaunt tougher than usual. But more long slow distance running will affect your speed to some degree. A way to counter balance that affect is to add some type of speed work to your routine. Intervals, tempo runs, fartleks or some other speed workout once a week or every other week will offset some of the loss in speed. Be careful with these types of workouts though. Your chance for injury goes up with these more intense runs. If you're goal is a marathon you need to keep your eye on that target. Yes, more slow distance slows your speed, but it also enables you to go for much longer distances comfortably at a slower speed. That's what you need for a marathon. Being able to run 10-15 miles at 8:30 is great, but if you crash and burn at 20 miles of a marathon that speed is useless. Trust me - I've done it and it isn't pretty. If you can run 9:00's for 26.2 you're under 4 hours for a marathon. Pardon my ignorance but is this your first marathon?

[Iceman]

Great minds think alike, eh Parky?

[Debbie]

Yes, it will be my first marathon (if I get in). And I have been attempting to sort of base train since reading about it on RW and completing the Windsor half (where, BTW, I ran 8:30 minute miles).

I say 'sort of base training' because this has been somewhat erratic. I started off using the '180-age' formula bandied about on the 'Base Training' thread on the RW website and advocated by Phil Maffetone and Mark Allen as 'scientically based' (although they gave no indication on how this had been determined). I'm 34 so this worked out to 146 bpm. I found it totally impossible to keep my HR this low, particularly as it's fairly hilly where I live and at that HR I was having to walk up every hill, even a moderate incline. I allowed myself an extra 5 bpm (as I was training 4 times a week). I could just about cope with 151 bpm except on hills, where I let my HR creep up to about 155-160 so as not to walk. I stuck at this for about 2 weeks but my usual 8-8:30 minute miles were turning into 10+ minute miles, and I wasn't enjoying my running. For a start, I found that running so unnaturally slowly was putting more pressure on my knees and hips than my normal pace.

So I decided to experiment - and have been running 150-160 bpm for an easy run, 155-165 for a moderate run, and leaving the HRM at home for the faster runs! But since Windsor, and a week off then really slow training for 2-3 weeks, I've found that my previous comfortable pace of 8-8:30 minute miles feels quite hard - certainly much harder than it did before.

This may be because I'm now running more than the 4 sessions a week I used to do (before I'd generally have a recovery day in between each run, so always ran on 'fresh' legs) or it may be that I've now got used to the slow pace so anything faster automatically feels more difficult. I realise that if I'm training for a marathon it's going to be necessary to run longer and therefore slower (previously, apart from my long run which got to 12 miles at the furthest, none of my weekday runs exceeded 5.5 miles).

I guess the answer is to increase mileage on all my runs, doing this slowly, but work in a few tempo sessions here and there just to keep a bit of speed going. I guess I'll inevitably lose some speed but I'm just scared I won't be able to get it back! That said, I've also read that just doing more miles (all other things being equal) will lead to increased performance over shorter distances (well, it worked for Paula)!

Thoughts, anyone?

[Debbie]

PS: Parky, to effectively base train you are supposed to run purely aerobically. This means NO anaerobic exercise of any description (so no speedwork, fartlek, hill reps or even weight workouts).

Which is why I can't hack it!

[Nigel]

Each of these approaches can help you run better.

Base training aims to improve your aerobic threshold. This improves your overall fitness and running economy, and this will in turn improve your endurance and ultimately your potential for speed. However, this is training to be carried out during a period when you are not specifically preparing for a marathon.

Speedwork aims to improve your running efficiency. Running fast helps to improve your running gait and stride. This training may also help your breathing capacity (VO2). This type of training is good for 10k and 5k speed (allegedly). Nevertheless, the improvements in running efficiency can work through to benefit all of your running.
Tempo runs (those with a sustained burst of moderate speed) will make you more comfortable when racing, by improving your lactate threshold. This really helps your half marathon times, and will also build into your marathon performance.

To some extent, long runs mimic the effects of base training, and by doing them slowly you can not only reduce the negative effects of long distance on your body, but also accustom your body to running for a very long time, something it will have to do on marathon day. You may find, like Paula, that marathon training improves your performance at shorter distances as well, but maybe this improvement comes from the increased tolerance to harder training which ultimately goes with this particular territory.

Your comfortable training pace is 8:30, the same as your Half Marathon race pace. This suggests that your likely marathon pace is probably somewhere in the 9:00 to 9:30 range, provided you are adequately trained for the event. This means that you have to be trained for running very long distances.

As Iceman says, the period of marathon training is all about building endurance. Long runs are everything, and you will feel like all your runs are slow during this period, in part because you are fitter and it gets easier. You need discipline not to train too fast all of the time. Instead you can do some limited speedwork, especially in the early weeks of a marathon training programme, and maybe add occasional tempo runs and a half marathon race up to about four or six weeks out. Your half marathon time will likely improve, too.

But whilst the other stuff helps your general fitness and confidence, and helps to keep you sane, endurance is absolutely 100% of running the marathon. The simple problem is that the race only really begins at 20 miles.

Perhaps the biggest, and easiest, mistake to make in a marathon is to train just a bit too fast, and then to run an ambitious pace, too near to your half marathon pace. It will feel just fantastic for 20 miles, and you'll think you can keep it up all the way. But you'll probably end up walking quite a bit of those last 6.2. And it will hurt. A lot. Iceman puts it perfectly when he says that those fast first 20 miles mean little when you lose more time, possibly much more time, than if you'd started off just 15 seconds per mile slower in the first place.

It's very tempting to run just that 3% faster. It's easy. But trust me, it's a very long way from the Tower of London to the Mall, or from Southside Chicago to Downtown when you're crawling....

[parky]

This is all really interesting stuff for me, as my training tends not to be so scientific. Long run at weekends and at least one speed session in the week, seems to work for me.

Nigel, what you said about a long way from the Tower to the Mall is bang on the money, but also the other thing to be careful of (I think) is not to carried away when the crowd lift you. Its tempting at some points in a marathon to really increase your pace because of the sheer adrenaline rush of the cheering spectators - particularly somewhere like Tower Bridge (I defy anyone not to have goosebumps when you turn onto Tower Bridge and feel the noise of the spectators).

This year I turn onto the Bridge and did abit of showboating, you know cheering the crowd, getting them cheering that sort of thing, all good fun ...but ... I actually increase my pace over the bridge, and found that I knackered myself for abit afterwards!! Not the brightest of moves.

Debbie, I can't remember if you said, but what marathon are you training for?

[Debbie]

Nigel, thanks for those words of wisdom and for summarising the benefits of different types of training so succinctly. You're completely right in what you say about the marathon being a pure test of endurance, and as such it must be appropriately trained for.

I'd calculated my marathon pace to be somewhere in the region of 9-9:30 minute miles too, so we agree on that. However, I do have a secret hankering to run 3:45 if I possibly can ... but we'll have to see how the training shapes up, especially as half marathon distance is the furthest I've run. I don't know yet at what point I'm likely to hit the wall, and how hard I might hit it!!

At the moment my training schedule includes two shorter runs per week (which build up to 5 miles maximum), and two longer runs which gradually build up to peak at 10 miles each, as well as a long run each week. Weekly mileage peaks at 53 miles 6 weeks prior to the race (which is London 2004 BTW, Parky). As the schedule is only 18 weeks and I'm starting now, I've built in a six-week block alternating between 40 and 35 miles to get used to the increased distance before I start the final climb to 50+ miles. Up until now I've only run a maximum of 25 miles a week, more often around the 17-20 mark. So gradually and slowly is the key I think, to avoid injury and illness/overtiredness.

I'm taking yours and Iceman's comments about the last 6.2 miles very seriously. Much better to run a little slower over each mile than have nothing left for the final 6 having started too fast. And I take on board the comments about being driven on by the crowd. I know I'll be tempted to increase the pace if I hear everyone cheering so I'll have to watch out for that.

All this and I don't even know if I have a place yet!