Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
16-07-2017, 04:57 PM, (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017, 05:00 PM by El Gordo.)
#1
Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Dear All,

The subject of Phil Maffetone's endurance-building training methods have been aired a good few times here, and particularly the low-carb-based nutrition. I was trying to read some of the earlier contributions but they are dotted about all over the place. (I should have collected the links and posted them here. Maybe I will.)

Anyway, the reason for posting this is that about 10 days ago, I returned from a week and a bit in Northern Blighty, filled with fish & chips and excellent ale, and realised that at 235 pounds, was heavier than I've ever been. I'm writing a blog post about it, but I'll mention that one of the highlights was a visit to the great Glaconman, whose lovely wife, a prodigious runner-turned-cyclist, ordered me to get myself sorted out. I also hit 60 during the trip, which concentrates the mind. Something must be done, I thought. Yes, I've thought this many times before, but this time, especially with the calendar clicking round to that fearful point, there is a sense that, there can be no excuses.

I started a fairly standard low-carb diet a day or two after I got back, and so far, I've shed more than 10 pounds. A good start, but I'm thinking I need to get a bit more methodical about it. I know a few people here have toyed with Maffetone, notably MLCMM, and other related regimes. How are people getting on? Have you stuck with it? Any tips or warnings? I thought it might be useful to have a thread about these regimes as otherwise, some excellent information gets lost in the training diaries. But I'd give Maffetone a go if it's right for me.

How seriously have people followed this sort of regime. I see that Maffetone urges people to eschew "costly, built-up running shoes", and to wear flats instead. Have you done this? 

That said, no need to restrict to Maffetone. For instance, the great Tim Noakes has written a corker of a book called The Real Meal Revolution, which I've recently consumed. He's a noted ultramarathon runner of course, but this book majors on food. The message will be a familiar one to low carbists. There's loads of Noakes stuff on YouTube, and here's one of a lecture he gave to students in Sweden[url=https://urskola.se/Produkter/183316-UR-Samtiden-Naring-for-halsa-och-prestation-Konsten-att-paverka-halsan][/url]. Quite long, but his story's an interesting one, and worth a watch IMO.

I'm feeling motivated, people. I didn't want to post anything until I had at least a few pounds lost, and it's possibly still a little premature, but I've been easing my way back into rowing, and am already feeling the effects of having shed the first few pounds. I'm even allowing myself to wonder about getting my running shoes on again -- though not yet. Perhaps once I've lost another 10 I might try it.

So. That's it. Any thoughts?
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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17-07-2017, 09:32 AM, (This post was last modified: 17-07-2017, 09:34 AM by glaconman.)
#2
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Good to hear you're on the front-foot Andy. The Strava Gods have spoken! Hehe.

My own experiences with this type of diet have been problematic . Although I understand the science and back-story. Beer, bread, pasta, rice .... they are all major elements of my calorific intake. And I have a deep and meaningful love for them all. Personally I can only approach this as shades of grey. It's a matter of shaving bits off here and there without attempting the all or nothing approach.

For example, not eating carbs before a long run I would find problematic.

But I can explore putting lentil salads and steak dinners on the roster. No problem.

Perhaps chipping away will, over time, help to produce real changes in habits. Rather than the turning-over-a-new-leaf approach.

I suspect you may enjoy the more immersive approach and fully engage with the bigger picture. But which approach has the greatest chance of success?
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17-07-2017, 02:51 PM, (This post was last modified: 17-07-2017, 02:54 PM by Charliecat5.)
#3
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
I was told off a little while ago by a none-running-friend for complaining about my weight… I understood this at the time, because I am by no means a fat bastard.  But I use to be.  And that’s why I remain sensitive about it.  Five odd years ago, I weighed over 90 kilos, which for a man of my stature is quite a lot.   It was whilst playing football at the Dripping Pan (Dads vs. Kids knockabout) that I decided to grab my ballooning body (so to speak) and do something about it.  The tipping point was twisting my knee and realising that it probably wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t had been a couple of stone over weight.

My approach to weight loss was very simple.  To eat less.  I didn’t follow any particular diet, none of the trendy trends, I just cut my intake by between 300 and 500 calories a day.  In fact, I’m guessing about the calories, as I didn’t actually count them.  The one thing I did do, is cut out the things that I like to binge on.  These were a real risk to my diet… so I decided it was better to not to have them at all.  This mainly included bread, peanut butter and crisps.  I also reduced the amount of beer I was drinking and only drank at the weekend.  

It took me about six months, and my weight fluctuated up and down during the period, but the overall trend was downwards.  I didn’t really know what weight I was aiming for, but it kind of just happened on its own.  I reach a point (78-80kg) when I wasn’t losing any more weight.  I felt pretty good, I was biking well (I was a mountain biker in those days), so decided to stop the diet.   Since then I have bounce up and down a little but the aim is to stay under 80kg.  At the moment, I would like to get down to under 78kg as I know my running improves (currently at 80kg).

On another note, I have just been out for an 8.5 mile run in the stinking mid-day sun.  It was horrible and very slow.
There is more to be done
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18-07-2017, 08:15 PM,
#4
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Great to see you posting about diet and fitness (in either order) again, EG.

As I read your post, you lost 10lbs in about 8 days? Sounds dramatic.

As ever, the battle with food will be a psychological one. In modern society we have access to essentially limitless calories. We can also literally starve ourselves, if we so choose. Every single pathway from morbid obesity to skeletal malnourishment is open to us. So I think the mechanism isn't that important. It seems that low carb works. It seems that low cal works. Both with good logical reasons. The question is, what method can you put your faith in, and stick with for years?

Personally, as one a little over a decade younger than you, I'm still riding my luck. Trying to maintain a decent balanced diet overall, but then supplementing it with crap in the name of stress / fatigue relief. Not even exotic crap either: bread and butter are my, erm, bread and butter. I reckon I have about 5 years left. No! Not that! (I hope.) I just mean until I have to start taking diet seriously. Of course now would be better. But for now, butter and batter are better.
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19-07-2017, 11:57 AM, (This post was last modified: 19-07-2017, 11:59 AM by Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man.)
#5
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
I started Maffetone last October and dropped from 84kg to 71kg, where I remain. I run now far more so on fat rather than carbs (it takes a few months to get to that stage, but it works), and I eat no pasta at all, and only about 10% of the bread that I used to eat (if that). Otherwise, I eat and drink with impunity (after two weeks of <30gms carb per day, I slowly ramped it up. Now it's probably close to 200gms/day, but I still largely burn fat when I run).

What do I eat? Lots more vegetables, eggs, rice, plenty of fat (esp butter and olive oil) and protein. Pretty simple really. As I say, the only things I consciously restrict now is anything wheat-based.

For me, it's brilliant.
Run slow, run far.
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20-07-2017, 10:31 PM,
#6
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Thanks All.

I'm still going strong, and finding it not just easy, but actually enjoyable and liberating. I've not signed up to any strain of low carb, and have no carb targets. The notorious Atkins 'induction' phase of max 20 grams of carbs a day seems just too extremem to me, though there have been a few days when I happen to have been under that. I suppose <50 is a rough guideline.

I'm down around 13 pounds so far, and it should have been more. I had two slips, and on two successive days, so it took a few days to work that through the system. Last Thursday, I indulged my dirty little secret, that I really should write about sometime, namely being a regular at FC Vaduz, the main town of Liechtenstein. They play in the Swiss League, but were relegated last season. Somehow, they still managed to get a Europa League place, and I had to get along to see the struggle against Odd. Yes, Odd, from Norway. We lost 0-1, though the lads put up a good fight. (Lost again, by the same score, tonight, in the second leg, so our Europa League dream is over for another season.)

Er, but anyway, at half time I realised I was starving, and went in search of appropriate nutrition. After rejecting the usual hamburgers and Bratworst und Brot (I couldn't countenance asking for just the meat), I started surveying the snacks. For some reason I got it into my head that popcorn was low carb. In fact, there is a variety that is, that I'd read about, but this most definitely wasn't it. After I bought the thing, I saw that it contained about 70g of carbs, but I was so hungry, I couldn't stop myself. Would actually have been better to have got a hamburger after all, but there we are.

Next night, I had to fulfill a long-standing social engagement, meeting a couple of friends in that big bar at Zurich HB. You know the one. I'd gone there with the intention of having a couple of glasses of wine, which are mercifully lowish carb, but Swiss wine prices in the on-trade are shocking, so I caved in and had a few beers, then some wine I got home. It took about 4 days for my body to forgive me, despite immediately getting back on track. The steady weight loss finally kicked in again a couple of days ago.

Like others have said, I also don't like complicated instructions for these things. Essentially, I'm not eating bread, pasta, rice, potatoes, and other starchy stuff -- all things I used to love, but seem not to miss at all now. The ability to consume butter-fried meat and have cheese omelettes for breakfast, is more than adequate compensation. I also had a serious low-calorie fizzy drink habit, and have had to swap that for water. Fortunately, our tap water here is purer than the stuff you buy in supermarkets, so I can't complain.

Net result is that I'm feeling a lot better and, while I'm very reluctant to get too ambitious (seeing that I've made something of a career of announcing intentions which crumble shortly after), it does seem that this one could work. I'm 222 pounds today -- down from 235 when I got back from Blighty. I've never been lower than about 201, even when I was marathon-plodding, and even 201 is way more than my 'healthy weight' which is apparently between about 165 and 180. If I could get anywhere below 200 I'd be delighted, but let's see.

We're off to Verona tomorrow for a couple of days -- seeing Placido Domingo in the Roman Arena -- but have no qualms about missing on the pasta and gelato.

As for exercise, I've managed a few 30 minute rowing sessions and they seem to be getting easier. At this rate, I might end up actually going for a run.

Will post updates.
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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21-07-2017, 10:23 AM,
#7
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
(20-07-2017, 10:31 PM)El Gordo Wrote:  Last Thursday, I indulged my dirty little secret, that I really should write about sometime, namely being a regular at FC Vaduz, the main town of Liechtenstein. They play in the Swiss League, but were relegated last season. Somehow, they still managed to get a Europa League place, and I had to get along to see the struggle against Odd. Yes, Odd, from Norway. We lost 0-1, though the lads put up a good fight. (Lost again, by the same score, tonight, in the second leg, so our Europa League dream is over for another season.)

FC Vaduz ...I'll be looking out for their results from now on!   Smile
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22-07-2017, 11:44 AM,
#8
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
What's the situation with sweet stuff? All fruit OK, anything containing flour out, but otherwise fair game? (chocolate, ice cream, syrup, etc?)

Are you concerned about the amount of fat you're eating?

PS - why the butter-frying? Is vegetable fat too high in carbs?
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23-07-2017, 02:46 AM, (This post was last modified: 23-07-2017, 02:47 AM by Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man.)
#9
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
(22-07-2017, 11:44 AM)marathondan Wrote: What's the situation with sweet stuff? All fruit OK, anything containing flour out, but otherwise fair game? (chocolate, ice cream, syrup, etc?)

Are you concerned about the amount of fat you're eating?

PS - why the butter-frying? Is vegetable fat too high in carbs?

Fruit is fine, Dan due to the fibre you consume with it. Fruit juice (unless it's very pulpy) and other sugary things are basically out, at least whilst you're on your way down to your target weight. I guess I don't consume much in the way of simple sugars anyhow, so it was never a big deal for me, but I do eat chocolate in moderation.

Butter just tastes bloody good. High fat is not an issue. Cheese is great, too. It's carbs that are the enemies here, not calories, as such. There are loads of documentaries on the subject now, such as "Cereal Killers" or any of those American anti-sugar movies, or the Dr Michael Mosley programmes. They all pretty much say the same thing: sugar is the enemy, not fat.

Fry up, it's good for you. But go easy on the bottled sauce.
Run slow, run far.
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23-07-2017, 08:23 AM,
#10
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Interesting... where does heart disease fit into the picture? Risk due to high intake of saturated fat is offset by risk reduction due to not being overweight?
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23-07-2017, 11:48 AM, (This post was last modified: 23-07-2017, 11:53 AM by Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man.)
#11
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
(23-07-2017, 08:23 AM)Imarathondan Wrote: Interesting... where does heart disease fit into the picture? Risk due to high intake of saturated fat is offset by risk reduction due to not being overweight?

Let me preface this by (again) saying that if you do not know your cholesterol level and your blood pressure, then you are bloody stupid. These are the two leading indicators of coronary risk and you absolutely need to know what they are. For all its undoubted and undisputed benefits, running simply will not prevent you keeling over from a heart attack if you have a genetic predisposition for it; which is why you absolutely must have an annual check-up if you have even a slight familial history of heart disease. No question. Just fucking do it.

There is still debate about the impact of saturated fats on coronary disease. All I can say is based on my own experience, which does not necessarily indicate what the results would be for you. You simply must find out what your risks are and how to minimise them. That said, when I first discovered I had a genetic risk of heart disease and (at the insistence of my doctor) went on a very low-fat diet, the result was that my cholesterol levels soared. Restoring "normal" levels of fat restored them to slightly high, but not significantly risky levels.

Since going on the Maffetone high-fat, low-carbohydrate regime, my cholestoral levels remain normal. My blood pressure is superb, and my last high-res heart scan was likened to that of "someone in their 20s".

For me, then, the results are obvious: restrict sugar, eat plenty of fat, and expect a long and healthy life. You, however, need to find out what is best for you. And only you can do that. Oh, and keep running. Running is really, really good for you, too. Just get the ticker checked, no matter how fit you are.
Run slow, run far.
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25-07-2017, 12:00 PM,
#12
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
I am in France for 3 weeks. Si not giving up bread any time soon Smile
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31-07-2017, 10:31 PM, (This post was last modified: 31-07-2017, 10:36 PM by El Gordo.)
#13
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
(21-07-2017, 10:23 AM)Bierzo Baggie Wrote:
FC Vaduz ...I'll be looking out for their results from now on! 
  Smile

Sadly, you won't find the Brack League (Swiss Div 2) on the BBC website -- an outrage that I've brought to their attention, though they've not yet responded to my complaint. The Liechtenstein game deserves a higher profile, as few would surely deny. So far, Vaduz have won 1 drawn 1, which is reasonable.

All that said, I'm toying with the idea of switching my loyalties to Luzern, a well-run club with a smart stadium, just 45 km / 40 mins drive from here. Managed by Markus Babbel, ex-Liverpool, Bayern, German international.  Should be a good omen though my German colleagues tell me that despite his legendary status as a player, he's been the kiss of death at the three German clubs he's coached.

==============================

(22-07-2017, 11:44 AM)marathondan Wrote: What's the situation with sweet stuff? All fruit OK, anything containing flour out, but otherwise fair game? (chocolate, ice cream, syrup, etc?)

Are you concerned about the amount of fat you're eating?

PS - why the butter-frying? Is vegetable fat too high in carbs?

(23-07-2017, 02:46 AM)Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man Wrote: Fruit is fine, Dan due to the fibre you consume with it. Fruit juice (unless it's very pulpy) and other sugary things are basically out, at least whilst you're on your way down to your target weight. I guess I don't consume much in the way of simple sugars anyhow, so it was never a big deal for me, but I do eat chocolate in moderation. 

Butter just tastes bloody good. High fat is not an issue. Cheese is great, too. It's carbs that are the enemies here, not calories, as such. There are loads of documentaries on the subject now, such as "Cereal Killers" or any of those American anti-sugar movies, or the Dr Michael Mosley programmes. They all pretty much say the same thing: sugar is the enemy, not fat.

Fry up, it's good for you. But go easy on the bottled sauce.

I'm not eating a lot of fruit. I'll come back to it, for sure, as whole fruit is still classed as 'good carbs', but I'll wait until I've dropped a few more kilos. That said, berries are OK in moderation. Being cherry season, the local farms have tons of them for sale, so I've take the pragmatic decision to reclassify them as berries. So cherries and strawberries are my luxury snacks, but that's about it. Bananas and apples, my usual staples are out for the moment.

Yes, the high fat thing is counter-intuitive, but if Prof. Tim Noakes is urging me to enjoy my butter-fried mushroom and Brie omelettes, who am I to disagree?

==============================

(23-07-2017, 11:48 AM)Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man Wrote: Let me preface this by (again) saying that if you do not know your cholesterol level and your blood pressure, then you are bloody stupid. These are the two leading indicators of coronary risk and you absolutely need to know what they are. For all its undoubted and undisputed benefits, running simply will not prevent you keeling over from a heart attack if you have a genetic predisposition for it; which is why you absolutely must have an annual check-up if you have even a slight familial history of heart disease. No question. Just fucking do it.

Good advice, I'm sure. Last time I checked my blood pressure (just before I started this regime), it was a fair bit higher than optimal but from past experience, this is/was a reflection of my lethargy and weight, and will come down fairly steadily. It probably already has. I will check tomorrow. 

As for cholesterol, erm, sorry, failed on this one. Failed to check, I mean. I'll see what the good Doktor Müller has to say.

==============================

(25-07-2017, 12:00 PM)glaconman Wrote: I am in France for 3 weeks. Si not giving up bread any time soon Smile

Nice one. Let me know if you're straying over near the Swiss border.


==============================

So anyway,  I'm still going strong, though I had a bit of a plateau week or so. Not helped by a total lack of exercise. But the weight is still nudging down. Day off tomorrow for Swiss National Day, which I plan to mark with some sort of attempted jogging activity. Will almost certainly be a rather weedy run-walk but I have to start somewhere, and at least I'll feel a bit more deserving of the traditional fireworks later on.
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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02-08-2017, 01:01 AM,
#14
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Encouraging stuff, all this. I went for the Maffetone Method earlier in the year and found the food restrictions all well and good. The issue I had was with the low heart-rate running. It's was remarkably dull and unsatisfying.

In April & May I got busy traveling and piled on the blubber. I'm currently as lardy as I can recall, though the loss of my license (totting up points) has seen me cycling the 14+ kms to (and again, from) work this for the past week or so. It's a hilly route, one that even the purchase of an electric bike hasn't quite tamed. 30 minutes each way.

My knee surgeon would be very happy.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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03-08-2017, 12:21 PM,
#15
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
(02-08-2017, 01:01 AM)Sweder Wrote: Encouraging stuff, all this. I went for the Maffetone Method earlier in the year and found the food restrictions all well and good. The issue I had was with the low heart-rate running. It's was remarkably dull and unsatisfying.

I've never had any luck with low heart-rate regimes. It's just the weight-loss bit I'm interested in. I know enough about my own limitations and needs to work out a training regime, which I've actually done, to the accompaniment of much eye-rolling, guffawing optimism from the hidden crowd. I still like the idea of Chi running, and am giving it another go.
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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08-08-2017, 06:45 PM,
#16
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Update: the weight loss continues, though in smaller steps. I'm down by 17 pounds now, which is reasonable progress.

On the exercise front, last week I put together a string of active days -- rowing alternating with 3 brief and breathless run-walks. On Sunday, I decided to treat myself to a leisurely bike ride to Thalwil for an afternoon Starbucks. Only about 8 kms, but the route I took was much more undulating than I thought, and by the time I took my first Americano mouthful, I was aware of an ache in my back. A half hour later, when I tried to jump up and get going again, it immediately outed itself as a painful strained muscle. At one time I'd have ignored it, but given my post-Berlin slipped disc, decided not to take any chances, and rather glumly took the train back home along the lake.

Two days later it's still painful, but improving, and I'm pretty sure it's not connected to my herniated disc. I'll take another day or two's rest. Slightly annoying, but it's probably a handy reminder that I'm not yet in a position to have 6 or 7 consecutive aerobic days. So I'll take a step-back break and let the healing happen.

But overall, reasonably pleased with progress.
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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11-08-2017, 07:12 AM,
#17
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Wise counsel, mate. We're not getting any younger. My backside has taken a brutal pounding (not a sentence I'd readily post anywhere else) these past two weeks. So much so that I chose to work from home on Wednesday, so as to avoid the bike ride. It helped. Softly, softly, catchy monkey.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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11-08-2017, 09:04 PM,
#18
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
(11-08-2017, 07:12 AM)Sweder Wrote: Wise counsel, mate. We're not getting any younger. My backside has taken a brutal pounding (not a sentence I'd readily post anywhere else) these past two weeks. So much so that I chose to work from home on Wednesday, so as to avoid the bike ride. It helped. Softly, softly, catchy monkey.

Indeed. Though as in other walks of life, we tend to finally learn the lesson only by making the same mistake multiple times.

Today, 5 days on, the ache was still there, if diminishing. But I decided to take advantage of my compulsory health insurance, and went to see the delightful Dr Müller. She earned her money today as I threw my list of health concerns her way. She arranged a programme of massage and physiotherapy at Mediosport, the excellent place I used post-Berlin in 2013, as well as a course of guided core-strength training. 


I'll add the rest of this fascinating medical bulletin to the blog-in-the-sky.

Net weight loss stands at 18 pounds in 5 weeks.
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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16-08-2017, 08:29 AM,
#19
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
Hola Andy!

I thought of you on your birthday (esp as it was also mine) and I'm both thrilled and fascinated to hear about your progress Smile I don't have anything to add on low carb diets as I've no experience of them. The common thread I have is wanting to lose weight and get more active. I want to lose about a stone in total.

I find I suffer a lot of bloating and general discomfort and it seems damn near impossible for me to lose any weight while I'm suffering. I've thought about food allergies / exclusion diets and low carb diets, however I have managed to lose weight in the past by simply eating less and exercising more. I also find getting more sleep helps. For now I'm just reducing the amount I eat (from no on I may call this the CC5 method) and dramatically increasing my fluid intake. I have never really got into the habit of drinking enough water and that really messes up my digestion. I'm off running at the moment as my ankle is still twitchy, but have resolved this week to get out for a walk or a cycle 3 times per week so I am at least doing SOMETHING.

It's heartening to hear you're on a mission and making progress with it, cheers for sharing. Hope the ache in your back is easing and good on you for taking care of yourself rather than pushing it. And onwards ... keep going as it's clearly something you're enjoying and happy about.


... Take the National Express when your life's in a mess / It'll make you smile ...

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19-08-2017, 02:08 AM, (This post was last modified: 19-08-2017, 02:10 AM by El Gordo.)
#20
RE: Low carb / Maffetone / other regimes
(16-08-2017, 08:29 AM)twittenkitten Wrote: Hola Andy!

I thought of you on your birthday (esp as it was also mine) and I'm both thrilled and fascinated to hear about your progress Smile I don't have anything to add on low carb diets as I've no experience of them. The common thread I have is wanting to lose weight and get more active. I want to lose about a stone in total.......

Hallo, me Duck.

Thanks for the birthday wishes, and of course, straight back atcha, as I believe the young people of today might say. Hope you had as nice a day as I had at the Cleckheaton Folk Festival.

Regarding weight blah, well, as the great George Sheehan said, and as I even more notoriously continue to quote, 'every athlete is an experiment of one'. So I won't try to tell you what might work for you. All I can say is that for me, and (it seems) many others, the low carb approach does its job. It's not even a 'diet'. I'm not on one of those. I've just made some adjustments to what I eat. If you're vaguely curious to learn more, I'd recommend reading something like The Obesity Code, by Jason Fung. Or Why We Get Fat, by Taubes. 

No doubt my resolve will weaken at some point, but at the moment I'm hanging on in there. 

Are you planning to get to Almeria for the medio maraton in 2018? In my half-crazed state, I'm telling everyone (er, my wife) that I plan to run the Almeria Half 2018. 

Ha ha!! Hurrah for temporary weight loss hysteria and delusion!!
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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