Pasta La Vista, Baby
07-02-2017, 11:40 PM,
#1
Pasta La Vista, Baby
MLCMMan and I were banging on about this during the Almeria weekend.
We are each at different stages of following some of the principals advanced by Dr Phil Maffetone, in an effort to extend and ultimately improve our running careers. Here are a few useful links.

MAF - The 180 formula - website and app download
What is MAF - in the words of Dr Phil 
Natural Born Heroes - the book, written by Born To Run author Christopher McDougall, that sparked interest in MAF

More links, news, menus and general chat about the Maffetone Method/ Fat Burning/ Endurance Running to appear here.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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08-02-2017, 09:30 AM,
#2
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
MAF 1/1 raised a question.

If my MAF 180HR is 125, given that I don't exceed that, does it benefit me to run at an average 118?
I mean, is lower better, or is 125 both a maximum and close to an optimum?
Investigation required, unless MLCMMan has checked this before.

A good outing, though. Reportlette (with stats) due at Sweder shortly.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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08-02-2017, 10:26 AM,
#3
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
(08-02-2017, 09:30 AM)Sweder Wrote: MAF 1/1 raised a question.

If my MAF 180HR is 125, given that I don't exceed that, does it benefit me to run at an average 118?
I mean, is lower better, or is 125 both a maximum and close to an optimum?
Investigation required, unless MLCMMan has checked this before.

A good outing, though. Reportlette (with stats) due at Sweder shortly.

I am intrigued by all of this... as always though, I don't give myself the time to explore it properly.  What I do know is that my running nutrition is appalling.  I tried (and failed) to run the Medio maraton de Almeria on a Kitkat breakfast and a couple of energy chews.  I can say with some confidence that this will only carry a person over the hard-top for about four miles.  Leaving a further agonising 9 miles to go on empty. 

I shall be monitoring this thread closely.
There is more to be done
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08-02-2017, 11:11 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-02-2017, 11:12 AM by Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man.)
#4
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
I'll just say this for now...

Once you adjust to running primarily on fat, you do *not* need any form of carbohydrate loading prior to a run of less than four hours or so. Lately I have completed all my early runs, including the long runs of up to three hours on empty, i.e. before breakfast, with no ill effects at all. The part of the method that remains untested, and which is of primary interest to me this year is to see if Maffetone's promise holds true. That is, that if you maintain low heart-rate training for a sufficiently long enough period (and that period is vey individual, but seems typically seems to be some months), then you will not only match your previous high-carb diet pace, but exceed it.

Well, to be honest I am a little sceptical about breaking shorter distance PBs using this method. I'm far more interested in completing marathons without glycogen depletion (hitting the wall) and without injury risk. This, for me, is where the method seems to have the most promise.

It's definitely worth persisting with, and I will report back in coming weeks and months.
Run slow, run far.
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08-02-2017, 01:50 PM,
#5
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
(08-02-2017, 11:11 AM)Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man Wrote: I'll just say this for now...

It's definitely worth persisting with, and I will report back in coming weeks and months.

Mate, did you read my Q above?

In your experience/ understanding, is the desired HR
a) as close to but less than your HR180 target
b) as low as possible (and under your HR180 target)
?

I can't find this in MAF (yet). That said, there's a lot to wade through and this darned w*rk thing is kicking off ...
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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08-02-2017, 02:07 PM,
#6
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
Ah yes, sorry. Well, the lower the better, really (at least, that's my understanding) but in pragmatic terms you are always going to work up to the upper limit because it's so darned low anyway (if that makes sense).

I think it's best not to over-analyse it. Stay as low as possible for as long a you can, and don't sweat it too much. If it's not enjoyable and simple, it's going to be hard to stick at it. If you are running slow enough to chat comfortably, you are going to improve your endurance without burning too much carb. Your fat burning ratio will improve and you will run further and easier as a result.
Run slow, run far.
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08-02-2017, 02:22 PM,
#7
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
(08-02-2017, 02:07 PM)Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man Wrote: I think it's best not to over-analyse it.

I'd say that's exactly what you two are doing. Huh
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08-02-2017, 02:58 PM,
#8
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
(08-02-2017, 02:07 PM)Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man Wrote: Ah yes, sorry. Well, the lower the better, really (at least, that's my understanding) but in pragmatic terms you are always going to work up to the upper limit because it's so darned low anyway (if that makes sense).

I don't want to worry about bumping into the underside of 125 if I can happily run at 120-ish knowing that's OK
125 is tough to stick to, but I'll get used to it. Especially as I feel I could go out again this evening.

The downside of all this is it makes running with others impossible, which is a shame. I'll stick to it like glue for two weeks, then see how it goes.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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08-02-2017, 05:28 PM,
#9
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
Is there any immediate impact of ditching carbs? I ask since I started yesterday morning at breakfast in Almeria and have (so far) kept it up (omlette breakfast, chicken salad lunch etc). At the same time I have a blinding headache and last night felt achey as if getting flu. I may of course just be ill. But useful to know if there are any "withdrawal" effects ...
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08-02-2017, 05:58 PM,
#10
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
Yes, it's quite common OATR. It will pass in a few days and doesn't get too severe. Once it clears you will feel brilliant.
Run slow, run far.
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08-02-2017, 10:27 PM,
#11
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
I find it very difficult to be 14 days without eating any carbohydrates especially bread and fruit. After MLCMM told us about this method I reduced my intake of carbohydrates and tried to train under 125 beats and lost around eight kilos without being hungry in ten weeks.

Best of luck with the MAF!

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10-02-2017, 10:39 PM,
#12
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
Regarding the nutrition part, is this not essentially the Atkins Diet? Since Atkins, there's been a slew of low-carb books and programmes produced, aimed at reaching a state of ketosis. I've read at least 2 of the books. This looks like pretty much the same.

That's not a criticism of the method itself. In my experience, the low-carb regime -- whatever the name of the programme -- definitely works for weight loss, though as always, I struggle to cling on long enough to turn it into a lifestyle. My fellow Almerians this year can testify to that.

But I returned from Spain with renewed motivation to shed a few kilos and get mobile again, so perhaps I'll give this one a go.
El Gordo

Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
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11-02-2017, 09:45 AM,
#13
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
Good news EG. Yes and no ... it is essentially Atkins/ Paleo, with a tweek or two. But the main difference is the lowered HR workouts. This appears to accelerate the process and make working out easier and more rewarding.

I cannot deny it's odd, and for me, without beer or bread, a real challenge.
But I have fallen in love with breakfast. Bacon & avocado ...
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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14-02-2017, 04:52 PM,
#14
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
Hello chaps and chapesses, I've just dropped in briefly during my sojourn to Sri Lanka land, of which I shall write heaps later. But a land of reliable WiFi it has not been, so not much from me just yet I'm afraid. I can tell you that this place is no good for Maffetone; neither running (the streets are damned scary at any time of night or day) nor diet (carbs, carbs, carbs!).

Anyway, more about all that later. I'm stacking on the weight again thanks to the rice and curry you eat for every meal here ... wonderful, but my western gut is laying it all down as fat.

Not to worry, I'll start again from scratch if need be when I'm home again in a little under a week.

Adios, amigos.
Run slow, run far.
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16-02-2017, 10:35 AM,
#15
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
(14-02-2017, 04:52 PM)Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man Wrote: I can tell you that this place is no good for Maffetone; neither running (the streets are damned scary at any time of night or day) nor diet (carbs, carbs, carbs!).

Bugger. It's galling when you'd made such a good start, but herein lies the challenge for the traveling man (or woman).
I head to Shanghai soon. I'm pondering packing (well-wrapped, slightly under-ripe) avocados in my luggage. Chicken will be plentiful and the hotel breakfast buffet will offer the usual cheeses and meats, not to mention an egg station. On site will be challenging.

I'm just starting to feel the benefits again, 10 days in. The slow running thing still drives me nuts.
I may need to do a Twittens on Sunday just to blow away the cobwebs.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
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16-02-2017, 12:47 PM, (This post was last modified: 16-02-2017, 12:51 PM by Mid Life Crisis Marathon Man.)
#16
RE: Pasta La Vista, Baby
Mate, I've already decided I'm going to do only my weekly LSD at Maffetone pace, otherwise, as you point out, the fun goes out of it. It's all about balance. Let's not kill the enjoyment!
Run slow, run far.
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